Re: [colorforth] Ideas

[John Drake <jmdrake_98@xxxxxxxxx>]

--- "Samuel A. Falvo II" <kc5tja@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Sunday 29 February 2004 04:57 pm, Adam Marquis
> wrote:
> > I don't place any value on education, I know what
> I want and there's
> > people out there that want it too.
> > We don't need educated people, we need capable
> people.
> 
> This is dangerous thinking.  Education is extremely
> important.  Without 
> education, we wouldn't have anywhere near the
> understanding of the world 
> we live in today.  Attempting to solve a problem in
> an uneducated manner 
> will only create more problems.  History has shown
> this time and time 
> and time again, in political, sociological,
> economic, and technical 
> fields alike.  But, it requires education to
> understand this, so I guess 
> I'm just pissing into the wind.
> 
> > Learning takes time and energy. I dont want to
> waste those I dont want
> 
> Cry me a river.
> 
> > to preach, maybe only by example.
> > If its per project basis, why learn so much stuff
> I won't use anyway?
> 
> Two reasons.  First, repetition re-inforces
> concepts.  By learning things 
> on a case-by-case basis, you can form
> generalizations.  Those 
> generalizations are the kernals of true
> understanding.  Second, it shows 
> by example what *not* to do in many cases to achieve
> a given goal.
> 
> "Those who don't know how to write an OS are doomed
> to re-invent Unix, 
> only poorly."  This is a very true statement.  Of
> all the operating 
> systems in the world today, name me **one** "modern"
> operating system 
> that is significantly/fundamentally unique from
> Unix.  I can name only 
> two.  The rest are . . . Unix.

Oberon, 4os, aha, BlueBottle, eros, MorphOS,
AmigaDE

Of course if we restrict this to "modern and
commercially successful" I'd have to agree with
you.

> 2) If you don't aspire to learn, then you don't
> aspire at all!  

Well I agree with that.

> Life is 
> all about learning.  Your whole ColorForth projects
> have been nothing 
> *but* learning experiences for you.  Why
> artificially restrict yourself 
> to JUST ColorForth?  As Mark Slicker said in another
> post, ColorForth 
> did **NOT** just happen overnight.  Its evolution
> started from the 
> *very* *beginnings* of Forth back in the 60s. 

True.

> I think people need to sit back and seriously
> re-evaluate the meaning of 
> their lives.  If you want a true revolution, not
> only in computer 
> science, but in business, politics, whatever, we
> need something 
> seriously lacking: *THOUGHT*.  Nobody THINKS
> anymore, and that's because 
> they don't have the tools for thought -- knowledge. 
> Knowledge *IS* 
> power, and that's why it's so dangerous, and that's
> the whole crux of my 
> argument.
> 
> I didn't want to respond to Mark's rebuttal of my
> points, because it 
> completely *missed* the point I was trying to make. 

Yes.  I feel Mark missed your point.  But I feel
I've missed it too.  Mark's response, that you don't
need to learn C++ to understand ColorForth, didn't
fit what you were saying.  You were saying that you
needed to learn C++, Objective C, Oberon-2 ect.
to understand OOP.  That doesn't really apply to
ColorForth because ColorForth doesn't use OOP.
But I'm curious as to why you would say one needed
to learn all of those languages to understand OOP.
Clearly the people who invented OOP didn't know
C++ because it didn't exist.  And there are many
programmers that are good at OOP that have never
looked at Objective C or even heard of Oberon.
(And personally I LOVE Oberon).  If your point
is "knowing how OOP is implemented in more than
one computer languages helps you understand the
essence of OOP rather than just the syntax of
a particular language" then I agree.

Anyway I'm at a loss as to how your whole
argument fits in.  But then I was at a greater
loss as to the point Adam was originally trying
to make, so I guess I'm just really confused.

Were you responding to his "I want to build
a computer in my kitchen" comments?  If so I
agree.  I think most hackers have at some
point "daydreamed" about throwing off "all
the shackles" and building something totally
from scratch the way it "should" be done.
But of course you have to have some clue
as to how things HAVE been done so that
you don't just go back and reinvent the
wheel with a rectangular shape.

> Total non sequitor.  
> And I didn't feel like engaging in a knock-out,
> drag-down argument about 
> it, which Mark and I appear to have a violent
> propensity to do over 
> issues.  But to hear someone who is not interested
> in learning, who is 
> not interested in aspiring to be better, . . . what
> is the meaning of 
> your life then? 

Well, and I could be wrong, but it SOUNDS like Adam
isn't interested in learning C++, Objective C, 
Oberon 2 (though it's a great language and worth
learning), Perl ect.  That's different from not
wanting to learn.  (I know people who aren't
learning any programming languages and I think
all of us can say we know someone like that. :-) )

> It really causes me to question
> whether or not I should 
> belong to this group.  Is this the general consensus
> of those who are 
> present here?  

Is what the general consensus?  That you should 
leave?  Or that people don't want to learn stuff
other than ColorForth?  I think the answer to the
second question is clearly no since there are
people who participate here who use languages
other than ColorForth.  But, speaking only for
myself, I do subscribe to this list for the sole
purposes of learning more about ColorForth and
keeping up with Chuck's developments.  For the 
former question you are grown and can do what 
you, but I personally think the more diverse
views we have the better as long as everything
remains respectfull.

> If so, then I, like Jeff Fox, shall
> take my leave.  

Hmmmm...I missed that announcement.  I do
recall him saying he was going to leave c.l.f
but I see him posting there as much as ever.

> I 
> choose to evolve, not devolve.  Thank you.

That's good.  I'm not sure I'm understanding
you, but it's a good sentiment anyway.  There
is certainly more than one way to evolve.
 
Regards,

John M. Drake

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