Re: [colorforth] objects and forth

[Panthera Altaica <draltaica@xxxxxxxxx>]

--- On Mon, 1/26/09, David J. Goehrig <dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> At the heart of nearly every ML dialect is a forth
> implementation screaming for air too!  (SML NJ is a perfect
> example, its dictionary would make any Forth programmer feel
> right at home).
> 
> So while the views of the forth community may be more or
> less the same as they were years ago, the other communities,
> that are actively struggling with simplicity, are starting
> to think more and more like forth programmers.  At the
> current rate of "progress", most programmers on
> the planet will have no concept how their programs work, and
> the few who do will grok forth.

The main goal of OOD is ignorance(they call "encapsulation")
OOD doesn't like 'inheritance', the problem is stated as follows: "Because inheritance exposes a subclass to details of its parent's implementation, it's often said that 'inheritance breaks encapsulation'". 

It is the whole hide it in a black box and it will just magicaly work idea.

To quote Good Ideas, through the Looking Glass:
"5.6. Wizards We have discussed the great leaps forward in parsing technology originating in the 1960s. The results are ever-present since those years. Hardly anybody now constructs a parser by hand. Instead, one buys a parser generator and feeds it the desired syntax. This brings us to the topic of automatic tools, now being called wizards. The idea is that they are to be considered as black boxes, and that the user would not have to understand their innards, as they were optimally designed and laid out by experts. The idea is that they automate simple routine tasks, relieving computer users from bothering about them. Wizards supposedly help you – and this is the key – without your asking, as a faithful, devoted servant. 
...
If at least they could easily be deactivated, but typically they are obstinate and immortal like devils. So much for clever software for dummies: a bad idea!

And you are surprized that they all idiots teaching others how to be idiots?

> Further more, if you look at what the PEG people have been
> working on, with their parsing executable grammars, as a
> forth programmer you'll see how a bunch of object people
> go about implementing Forth.  It is really quite fun to
> watch them struggle with concepts that would be easy if they
> simply adopted a directly manipulable return stack.

And break encapsulation! Are you mad? :P


> My personal thoughts on OO is that it is a good model for
> describing interfaces between pieces of software that reside
> in separate process spaces.  

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E06EFD8103EE73BBC4E51DFB6678382669FDE

Of course the ones pushing for it know that wants are bad.  since you don't give a damn I'll just tell you to read
Henry George's Progress and Poverty.
http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm



But as Edmund Burke, I think it was, said, "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to help it."

I'm sure you (never) heard the tale: "In the early days of The Pennsylvania Gazette a contribution was brought into the office with the request that Franklin publish it... Franklin asked that the piece should be left to the following day, when he would decide about printing it. The person returned at the time appointed, and received from Franklin this communication: 'I have perused your piece and found it to be scurrilous and defamatory. To determine whether I should publish it or not, I went home in the evening, purchased a twopenny loaf at the baker's, and with water from the pump made my supper; I then wrapped myself up in my great-coat, and laid down on the floor and slept till morning, when, on another load and a mug of water, I made my breakfast. From this regiment I feel no inconvenience whatever. Finding I can live in this manner, I have formed a determination never to prostitute my press to the purposes of corruption, and abuse of this kind, for
 the sake of gaining a more comfortable subsistence."





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