[MachineForth] Bye.

[Waynesma <waynesma@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

 --- Jeff Fox <fox@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > 

To everybody I would like to apologise for this silly
waste of space in replying to this, and others.  This
is intended to be the last reply and message in the
list.  I love positive and truthful things like Misc
and even barracking for them, but some things are too
much to deal with and best left alone before they lead
you along into an ambush (like this time).  I have
other work to do that probably, in the end, will
benefit Misc, so I don't have time to get into this.

Only the first page is relevant for most of us:

- I replied to a non machine Forth thread (first
mistake).

- I made comments in passing (except e-dram comment)
which are about offering options, that are low cost
"carrot" design/service options until an investor
wants to pay for detailed design and prototyping etc
(options that the real market can take notice of and
?dish' their money out for).  Instead this has been
confused with the experience of 'paying for it all
yourself'.

- The primary offering has no competitive Misc
alternative (cheap on chip, high density and high
speed memory).

- Rather than leave them at that the thread starter
misreads them, and I have follow up to clear up
misunderstandings, which promotes said person to make
more misunderstandings.

- Why: doesn't some people seem to want others to win,
or to leave it alone till they have won dominance over
others; all the carping on; do they object to
explanations when they make mistaken comments against
somebody else?  Why is the only way out is to pack it
in and let these people think they have ?won' and are
right, when they haven't.  Why do some other people
have to answer to do the right thing, support the
truth and to clear things up.  Seems like an episode
for the X files.  Why don't the people adopt the above
approach to the first lot of people when they get like
this, and just ignore and drop it.


 Machine Forth (and Misc) related suggestions:
- The market reality is: if you want to make the money
give them something people will invest in and that
others will buy (it doesn't have to be something they
think they want at the moment).  These products can
also be made to do what you want as a sideline, or
they can pay for what you want to do.

- Forth is both a commercial and enthusiast community
and Misc and machine forth are both research and a
hobby.  If you want Machine Forth to be more than a
hobby then Machine Forth and Misc has to offer support
for a broad range of commercially viable applications
and as one of it's languages Color Forth as well (but
still on a minimalist scale).  This support is
increasingly the abstract managed support used in
modern OS's.  We are moving towards a managed ?do any
group of things at anytime' form of computing across
the board, and new commercial applications will
increasingly require the resource management for this.
 Dr Ting's present commercial venture and 6 Bit
instructions have the right idea.  People want
commercial applications to invest in.


Yes it does say that I am unsubscribing below, I think
somebody misread who was going to leave as a result of
?their" thread.

The rest of the comments below are basically in reply
to Jeff's comments and are (as well as those in this
whole message) of course purely my personal opinion. 
So you don't have to read on if you don't want to.


Waynesma wrote:
>
> Yes, Wayne.  I have no doubt that they will get
> funding and will succeed in the market place.
> I did not question that they will get support
> or even that they will get bandwidth in a
> MachineForth mail list which I don't quite
> understand since I just don't see what their
> funding or market success has to do with
> MachineForth.
>  
Yes Jeff is sniping again about positive comments in
passing made concerning the topic of his email to this
list that was not about machine forth.  He has not
figured out that I have only just taken him off my
kill file (on both accounts) a few days that I have
had him in since Christmas last year (only about the
second person in there in 4 years).  It appears that
likes making mistaken comments against what others say
and objecting to explanations.  I guess the only way
to let him go is to let him think his right.  Never
the less a lack of foresight into realities of the
market (such as "carrot" Misc options mentioned to
people that might offer them, rather than "high end
investors) is what keeps Misc/Machine Forth back. 
Chuck makes assertions in his color forth web pages
about OS's and code that I almost entirely agree with,
but this doesn't include some of the realities of
modern computer usage (plug in anything and do any
group of things at the same time) which require a bit
of management (though not anywhere near or 100Mb of
management :( or even probably 1 Mb).

> > True, but it offers attreactive cheap high
> > density/performance memory options for high end
> > investors who want cheap large megabyte memory on
> > chip.  
> 
> You are pitching the inferior technologies that
> will most likely suceed while MISC will not.  They
He has no competitive alternative, you are sniping
again.  This is just a bullet in the arsenal "carrot"
for investors, that's it.

> about MachineForth programming.  Why keep rubbing
> it in people's faces?

A credible side comment that was meant to be the last,
any other posts where just to clear up mistaken
assertions.

> It looks more like repeated pitching than mentioning

Pitching, I don't make anything out of it but Misc,
Misc/Machine Forth does.

> 
> > I still think that the x25, extremely good (of
> course
> > we may not even see this for a while).  A x25 with
> a
> > P64 (sorry still want monolithic Linux type OS) as
> a
> > front end processor (with Floating point/DSP/3D
> > Graphic routines in X25 ROMs) would give almost
> any
> > desktop a run for it's money.  
> 
> They by all means, save enough money to fund 
> prototyping a dozen runs of large chips and to
I've got to answer this, as an design option no
prototyping has to be done until an investor offers,
so cost are minimal, as an comment it doesn't need to
be even answered.

> 
> > Has Chuck ever
> > considered approaching some of the minor
> (hopeful)
> > players in the handheld video game industry, there

> place.  Once again, if you have a way to raise 
> those billions and do all that great.  I just 
Once again I didn't say that, you can merely offer
your design/service to these people (who have access
to money) and they will probably want to do the rest.

> don't see how pitching it to people interested
> in MachineForth programming will do that.  
Sorry was just "pitching" it to this misc thread
somebody started.  I received probably 4 messages off
of this list the whole year before this discussion
including non machine forth messages from one person.

> 
> > An x-25 with P32 front end would be great for a
> handheld,
> > and cost less money than a strong Arm.  Some 3D
> > systems and VOS's scale beutifully when extra
> > Parrallel processign power is added.  A module
> system
> > could be made to accept additional proccessors to
> > increase graphical performane, for 10 dollers the
> user
> > would stack x-25's.  Really, with the right
> functional
> > mix the X25 style chip array would make a greatly
> > competitive console that could emulate games
> machines
> 
> True.  True.  True.  I always felt that with the
> extra power compared to conventional designs and
> with
> things like Chuck's software that the same hardware
> could make a education machine that could teach
> people about computers and programming instead of
> teaching kids to shoot other kids or learning how 
> to be an evil hedgehog and conquer the world.  But 
> I know that pitching such ideas to poor programmers 
> is not going to produce the billions needed to
> compete in a marketplace that is mostly about
> marketing budgets.

Yes, reality marketable games sell, and you can use it
to produce a machine that can be used for other
purposes.

> 
> > or run virtual code.  At the risk of promoting
> > competitors, the Toas based Amiga VOS is good and
> > should have much software shortly, and a port ot
> the
> > x25 would allow the x25 to tap into that software.
> 
> If there is a risk to using the MachineForth mail
> list to promote competing products it is that it
To my VOS design, not machine Forth, Taos is a minimal
function operating system that allows you to a spread
of activities that require management.
> 

> > > optical stuff...
> > 
> > That's a shame, so they aren't interested in
hiring
> > him.  
> 
> I didn't say that.  You are making assumptions.
I didn't put an question mark after that because I
knew you would take it negatively if I did, so I left
it off.  Why don't you want anybody else to win or to
leave them alone till you won complete dominance.  I'm
not some spotted little kid you can pick on and bully
with "assumptions" enough of this bickering nonsense
that is why I gave up the Misc community, market
unreality, sniping and etc.  Of course I am
unsubscribing from this list and this is the last
message, but if you want to succeed then take this
advice.  Every Misc market suggestion I made has been
taken up (FGPA, Internet Web (but to late), stamp etc
etc), those people have been and are going somewhere. 
I wanted to prototype a Palm Pilot type product but
with a much better solution than their Graffiti
handwriting recognition, and that was years before
they came out with the Pilot.  I have made a string of
predictions about company and product futures years
before the event, that keep coming true.  If I've
known more about certain people I would not have
respectably and loyally waited around for them, hoping
that they get over there business ?difficulties'. 
Don't criticise people because they have bigger glass
balls than you.


> silicon for civilian projects yet.

If it's a "salvation Army" you want, I have a better
cause in that direction, and little time for this. 
Products out there pay for what you want to do.  If
you want to do this then follow Tings example, aim for
products in the hand that will financially enable you
to do what you want or can be made into the products
you desire.  If you want a educational machine give it
web/gaming or whatever other functions that will at
least allow it to be produced.


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