[MachineForth] Chuck's 25x and IBM's Blue Gene

[Jeff Fox <fox@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Waynesma wrote:
> Well this technology is meant to replace the current
> widely used technologies with many advantages.  Unless
> something better upstages it I think they definitely
> are going to succeed due to amrket demand.

Yes, Wayne.  I have no doubt that they will get
funding and will succeed in the market place.
I did not question that they will get support
or even that they will get bandwidth in a
MachineForth mail list which I don't quite
understand since I just don't see what their
funding or market sucess has to do with MachineForth.
 
> True, but it offers attreactive cheap high
> density/performance memory options for high end
> investors who want cheap large megabyte memory on
> chip.  

You are pitching the inferior technologies that
will most likely suceed while MISC will not.  They
have inferior technology but funding and your
support in pitching these technologies even to 
the few people interested in MISC and in learning
about MachineForth programming.  Why keep rubbing
it in people's faces?

> But until somebody with money and access to the
> technologuy comes it wouldn't cost much as an option.

Then by all means, pitch it to the high end
investors in this mail list who might otherwise
consider Chuck's technology or have interest in it.
 
> I'm just mentioning it in passing (as IBM won't even
> use it commercially as common technology itself for a
> few years), but it would be interesting to see what
> they are doing and what Chuck could do with it
> instead.

It looks more like repeated pitching than mentioning
in passing to me.  I would think it would be a better
fit to a blue sky hardware design list than the
MachineForth programming mail list.  But I am not
a list moderator or anything.  If this list is
not about MachineForth programming I might just
unsubscribe.

> I still think that the x25, extremely good (of course
> we may not even see this for a while).  A x25 with a
> P64 (sorry still want monolithic Linux type OS) as a
> front end processor (with Floating point/DSP/3D
> Graphic routines in X25 ROMs) would give almost any
> desktop a run for it's money.  

They by all means, save enough money to fund 
prototyping a dozen runs of large chips and to
advertize and market them then do it. Pitching it 
to people in a MachineForth mail list is not likely 
to produce the funding or interest in 64 bit 
UNIX/3D/floating point chips needed to make that 
more than BlueSky.  It seems more like
a subject for the a hardware wish list list.  I
just don't see the relevance to MachineForth
programming.  Which is what I thought this mail 
list was for.

> Has Chuck ever
> considered approaching some of the minor (hopefull)
> players in the handheld video game industry, there has
> been a number out there wanting to do systems?  

Ting is involved with companies interested in games
in Taiwan and has invited the Forth community to
get involved in the project and modify the MISC
designs he has published or to write code in
MachineForth or eForth.

The problem that I see with game machines is that 
they may only cost millions to develop but they usually
require billions in advertizing and billions in
marketing budgets to make them available at
very low wholesale prices if not below cost to keep 
retail prices low after retail markup as a way to
sell the media.  The media also has high marketing
costs but is where the money is.  I always thought
it was funny that a commerical could cost much more
to make than the game it avertizes and the cost
to run it is much more than the cost to make it is 
much more than the cost to write which required
developing and marketing the hardware in the first
place.  Once again, if you have a way to raise 
those billions and do all that great.  I just 
don't see how pitching it to people intersted
in MachineForth programming will do that.  

> An x-25 with P32 front end would be great for a handheld,
> and cost less money than a strong Arm.  Some 3D
> systems and VOS's scale beutifully when extra
> Parrallel processign power is added.  A module system
> could be made to accept additional proccessors to
> increase graphical performane, for 10 dollers the user
> would stack x-25's.  Really, with the right functional
> mix the X25 style chip array would make a greatly
> competitive console that could emulate games machines

True.  True.  True.  I always felt that with the
extra power compared to conventional designs and with
things like Chuck's software that the same hardware
could make a education machine that could teach
people about computers and programming instead of
teaching kids to shoot other kids or learning how 
to be an evil hedgehog and conquer the world.  But 
I know that pitching such ideas to poor programmers 
is not going to produce the billions needed to
compete in a marketplace that is mostly about
marketing budgets.

> or run virtual code.  At the risk of promoting
> competitors, the Toas based Amiga VOS is good and
> should have much software shortly, and a port ot the
> x25 would allow the x25 to tap into that software.

If there is a risk to using the MachineForth mail
list to promote competing products it is that it
will drive the few people with any interest in
MachineForth away.  But it is easier to leave than
to argue with you about using these mail lists
to promote the competition.

You are pitching it to the wrong people.  Telling
people interested in MachineForth programming does
not seem to me to be a way to promote that.  Have
you spent a similar amount of time pitching the
idea to Amiga?  Are they receptive to the idea?
Any interest there in such things?  Are they
waiting for this technology to become more mainstream?
Do you want other MachineForth programmers to stop
programming and spend time promoting these ideas?
 
> > optical stuff...
> 
> Thats a shame, so they aren't interested in hiring
> him.  

I didn't say that.  You are making assumptions.
Chuck enjoys his work on silicon and on computers 
to educate and empower individuals and has not
shown a great deal of interest in giving up on
silicon for civilian projects yet.

But I will quit complaining about the list 
being used to promote the competition.
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