Re: questions (about x21)

[Greg Alexander <galexand@xxxxxxx>]

I don't intend any personal attack on either you or Ting.  I see you spend
a lot of wordage complaining about being persecuted.  A lot of the attacks
are just stupid, perhaps scared, people saying your technology
won't/doesn't/can't work.  But I think you're dismissing some very
well-meaning and important criticism with regards to documentation just
because there are a lot of other people bashing you who know nothing.  You
have done an EXCELLENT job with transcribing the various speeches Chuck's
made -- a lot of what I've learned about Forth I learned from those
speeches -- thank you.  I think you've even done a good job with F21
documentation, esp. considering that that silicon isn't really ready for
sale.  You just need to keep in mind that to the vast majority of
interested parties the F21 is essentially the same as the P21...once
you tell them about the F21 they'll want to play with it, they'll see
only the P21 so they'll try to buy that, but they'll be very discuoraged
when they can't find any documentation for it.  As a result the whole
effort will suffer.  Your reputation will suffer, Ting's reputation will
suffer, and, more importantly, people will dismiss MISC because only the
unreleased chip is documented well on the web.
	As a side note, it looks like the F21 and P21 will be drastically
different chips from a programmer's poiont of view.  On the F21 I'd be
able to keep my entire call and data stacks on chip, and just accept the
limitations of them being only 17/18 deep.  But on the P21, you really
don't have much choice other than to use those stacks like P21Forth does
except in tight words, which seems somehow like quite a waste.  I guess
the chip is more than fast enough to handle the overhead for my uses,
anyways, but if I'm going to be using it almost as a register chip then
I'd be tempted to just straight up buy a register chip instead.  Oh well.
I guess youo already know abuot all those issues because the F21 has such
deep stacks.

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Greg Alexander [mailto:galexand@acm.org]
>>>Are there warts on the products and information issued by Jeff and Ting,
>>>respectively? Yes, and they'd be among the first to point them out. In
>both
>>
>>No, they wouldn't be.  Jeff responded to criticisms about P21 being
>>underdocumented by calling them nonsense.  At the time I agreed with him:
>
>If I said it was nonsense, it was nonsense to assume that the only place to
>find information on Offete Enterprises' MuP21 was at the UltraTechnology
>web site.  The information you want has been available for many years from
>Offete. You have not asked for perfect documentation, just things that
>Offete
>sells, like spec sheets, programming manuals, and other documentation on
>their chip.
>
>Even after several people have told you that UltraTechnology does not sell
>the
>MuP21, or illegally give away the products that Offete is selling you still
>seem
>to be complaining that Offete chip information is not at the UltraTechnology
>site.
>It is nonsense to assume that it should be there.
>
>>I'd read his site, there was gobs of documentation.  But it's all
>>documentation for the F21!  
>
>Of course.  You have been told several times that the UltraTechnology site
>is
>about F21.  Part of the information there are the free tools and
>documenation on
>MuP21 since it is related to F21. I have posted parts of some of the
>documents that 
>Dr. Ting sells with his permission. As a result some people seem to feel
>that I
>have not done a good enough job of documenting someone else's chip.  How
>good a
>job have they done?  If they think more documenation on the web is needed
>then
>maybe they could do something instead of complaining.  I am not the only
>person
>in the world capable of posting a web page.  Sometimes I think many people
>must
>assume I am since so many complain that I haven't posted enough to suit
>them.
>
>>There is very little documentation on the P21.
>
>Wrong.  There is tons of documenation on P21.  Some of marginal quality, but
>lots
>of stuff.  Most of what is on the web is at my site.  But of course this is
>only a
>tiny fraction of the total information.  The documenation from Offete does
>fill a
>bookshelf!
>  
>>Coulld you please point me to this generosity about the P21?  
>
>I donated a simulator for MuP21 in 1992.  I donated a full ANS Compliant
>Forth compiler for MuP21 with over 250 words in code and extensive
>documenation. I donated the pre-fabrication research simulation results in
>papers at Forml.  I donated transcriptions of Chuck's presentations on
>MuP21.
>I donated transcriptions of Dr. Ting's presentations on P21.  I donated
>transcriptions of some of Dr. Ting's documenation with permission.  I
>donated
>hundreds of cross-linked hypertext documenations and captured graphic images
>to my web site.  I donated multiple verions of Machine Forth for MuP21
>with documenation.
>
>I know I haven't donated enough to suit you.  Can you tell me what you have
>donated to Dr. Ting and Chuck's effort on MuP21?  Ask not what MISC can do
>for
>you.  Ask what you can do for MISC.
>
>>I can find a LOT of information about the F21 and that reassures me
>greatly, 
>>but i can find nearly no information on the P21.  
>
>The world is bigger than the World Wide Web.  Is the web your only source
>for
>information? I know people have told you this in the mail list.
>
>>A big reason that the MISC design
>>idea has no market penetration is that there's not much of an opportunity
>>for it: the documentation is for the F21, the hardware is the P21.  Since
>>Jeff is advancing an IDEA, not just another piece of silicon, it seems
>>like getting people up and running /and satisfied/ on the P21 would be a
>>very important step towards making the F21 accepted.  
>
>That is why I donated a working simulator environment capable of developing
>and debugging complex applications for P21.  That is why I documented it at
>the end user level.  That is why I provided all those transcripts about what
>Chuck and Ting were doing.  That is why I donated a sophisticated ANS Forth
>for MuP21.  That is why for a year I provided a way to buy Ting's boards,
>chips, and documentation online rather than mail order only.  I know that
>hasn't been enough for most people.  I understand that for people who are
>not in the US or can't call Offete and order stuff over the phone easily
>the information is a little hard to find.  That is why I include the latest
>Offete product lists at my web site.
>
>>I'm sure Jeff would
>>is happy just to get the F21 chips working, 
>
>I consider the prototypes I have to be working.  They have some known bugs
>with work arounds like most chips.
>
>>but I think he'll be a lot
>>happier if other people use the F21, if not just because that at least
>>opens the door for the possibility of significant income from the project
>>(i'm not saying he wants more money for money's sake, but it seems like
>>he'd want to get it when he can so that he'll be able to do that extra fab
>>run).
>
>That is why I have given away F21 chips to people who donated effort to the
>project and showed an interest in actually doing something.
>
>>Well, I couldn't figure out how to search the archives, or I'd post you
>>the message where someone did indeed offer to do a board layout and was
>>ignored by Jeff.  Jeff was having a hard time at the time, but nonetheless
>>it seemed like getting the F21 going was high on his priority list.
>
>You do not have access to private email about those offers.  The world is
>bigger than the MISC mail list.
>
>>As for some unaddressed issues:
>> * I still haven't seen a place where I can get detailed annd definitive
>>informatioon about the P21 instruction set architecture
>> * I haven't seen any information about the P21 pinout
>> * I haven't seen any numbers for P21 current draw
>> * I keep on seeing someone (multiple someones?) complain that the P21
>>seems unstable at driving video and Jeff Fox keeps on posting back, "It's
>>your power supply" in a dismissive fashion.  Now it probably is, but it
>>seems like it would be more satisfying if it were explained that the P21's
>>power supply sensitivity is due to its asynchronous design, not merely due
>>to shoddy engineering.
>
>So get a copy of the documenation from Offete. Engineer a board that you do
>not consider shoddy.  Publish the information.  Contribute something if you
>want to.
>
>> * and about once every 6 months I see someone post to this list raising
>>these issues and I see Jeff Fox (or, more lately, one of ya'll) come on
>>and say "don't diss Jeff Fox man."  You could easily shut me and Myron and
>>Vic and a billion other doubting thomases up if youo'd just give us URLs
>>for the information we're looking for.  Rather than saying "don't ask for
>>documentation, that's rude," point us at the documentation.  Someone said
>>something about making a P21 site -- I hope that happens, and it could
>>solve a lot of problems.  But as it is these are problems that are just
>>going to stay and posting to this list complaining about complaining about
>>them won't help it (though complaining about them probably won't help
>>either, at least it reminds people where the trouble is).
>
>When Chuck quit working on P21 and switched to F21 I also switched my focus
>from Offete's chip to mine. I had made it very easy to people to experiment
>with P21, even with a most basic knowledge of Forth and no little or no 
>knowledge of hardware.  I had to focus on developing my chip.  I still
>provided support for people experimenting with P21 but needed to put my
>energy into the development and debugging of my chip.  That was 1994. 
>To this day most of the information on the web about P21 came from me.
>
>As a result I have had dozens of people write me mail calling me a liar,
>a snake oil salesman, and a cultist.  I have had dozens of people complain
>that the problem is that I didn't do enough and post enough documentation.
>I have had dozens of people complain that I didn't donate the software that
>they wanted.  But I have also had dozens of people thank me for donating
>all the stuff I have about the history of Forth and Forth chips, Chuck's
>CAD stuff, and his ideas about programming to the public via my web
>site so it sort of balances out.
>
>>As it is, I still solidly respect the MISC pioneers, the computer
>>cowboys.  They're really doing the only thing worth doing with computers,
>>and they're doing a great job on the technical end.  It's just so
>>frustrating to see such an awesome piece of silicon like the P21 go to
>>waste because of simple issues that a naive teenager could solve
>>(putting up webpages, making them navigable, arranging for webhosting
>>service) after they've already tackled problems that have had people
>>scared for ages (simplicity in chip layout software, asynchronous design,
>>etc.).
>
>I think we did an excellent job on the technical end.  The hardware and the
>software are quite remarkable.  The documenation and public tools are not
>as good.  I expected a lot of people to donate stuff.  I donated lots of
>stuff
>for P21 before the chip was even avialable and have waited for many years
>for
>other people to make similar donates of software, board designs, and
>documentation.
>
>I also think the managment was done pretty well.  We did often have to
>develop things
>with no funding whatsoever.  I think the biggest problem was always
>fundraising.  It
>is hard to factor in unexpected things like death of an investor, an
>investor getting
>cancer, an investor losing millions in the agricultural market, being
>robbed, getting
>caught in an internet fraud scheme, bankruptcy, divorce etc.  It has been a
>long
>story so far and _quite_ and adventure.
>
>>	An invalid analogy would be if you had a novel with a great
>>beginning and a great climax and a very weak middle.  It's very exciting
>>to write the beginning and the climax but very boring to write the middle.
>>However, it is very time consuming to write the middle of a novel, but it
>>is very easy (comparatively) to write webpages!
>
>I found this to be true, but I would always be told, the documenation in too
>technical by one person and not technical enough by another.  I was then
>write
>an extra technical and extra non-technical version of the document and they
>would
>always get the same response from two other people.  Either the documents
>are too
>technical or not technical enough.  The same is true about the amount of
>information
>documented.  If I only document the software it doesnt' make sense without
>also
>understanding the hardware.  The hardware doesn't make sense without
>understand
>the history of Forth and there was a huge gap because there is little
>documenation
>about what Chuck has done with Forth after leaving Forth Inc.  So people
>complain
>that they can't find the information they want because a piece is missing or
>A that
>they just got lost in the many megabytes of documenation.
>
>>I'm not asking for marketting.  I'm not the unwashed masses or some
>>ignorant Venture Capitalist.  I'm a hobbyist who knows something about the
>>technology involved, but regrettably lacks the skills, knowledge, time,
>>and money to build his own chips.  i'm not asking for a full color useless
>>pretty typeset 1-page thing listing all of the great features of the P21
>>like you can so easily get from somewhere like Patriot Scientific about
>>the PTSC1000.  I'm asking for bare technical details about the P21, a chip
>>that's been out for quite a while and should be well understood by now.
>
>This information has been a phone call or mail message away for about 6
>years.
>Offete's address and phone number, and complete product list are at my web
>site.
>
>>>But it remains to be seen whether Jeff or Ting can muster the skills or
>>>resources needed to push either or both of these chips into the green zone
>of
>>>success. With our help and support perhaps they can.  But the last thing
>they
>>>need at this point is criticism for not looking and behaving like Intel.
>>
>>No, Intel released technical documentation grudgingly, they still hide a
>>lot of details.  My point that EVEN SECRETIVE INTEL, who obviously does
>>everything wrong, recognizes the necessity of providing free documentation
>>for their customers, even though the majority of their customer base
>>couldn't care less what the chip does.  You'd think with P21, which is a
>>good chip that is currently most popular among hobbyists would have a lot
>>more hobbyist friendly informatioon out there.  I'm still guessing that it
>>does and I just haven't found the webpage yet.
>
>Sigh. The world really is bigger than the World Wide Web.  If you are
>waiting
>for it to magically appear on your computer thanks to someone else you might
>have a rather long wait.  
>
>>All this is somewhat moot to me personally because when I get my next
>>paycheck I'm gonna buy a P21 and Dr. Ting's book.  
>
>Also look over the table of contents for each issue of More on Forth
>Engines.
>Many of the issues had numberous contributions by various people to the
>P21 project.  As I say it fills up a bookshelf!  Dr. Ting has an amazing
>number
>of products.  Most of them are $25 or less.  I think part of the purpose of
>Offete is to provide a job for Dr. Ting's father who fills the orders.
>
>I remember the first time I ordered something from Offete when I first moved
>to the Bay Area.  When I spoke to Dr. Ting's father in the Offete office I
>thought it was Dr. Ting and I couldn't understand why I had so much trouble
>trying to communicate with him.  He didn't seem to speak English very well
>and
>didn't seem to know anything technically.  Later I figured out I was talking
>to Dr. Ting's father in the store.
>
>I would have liked to publish the design of Dr. Ting's boards on the
>internet 
>or make free copies of the documenation that he sells.  I have done a little
>of that with his permission.  I have expected someone else over the last
>six years to make a P21 board and publish the details on the web.  I have
>provided support for all the boards that Dr. Ting has done.  After all
>these things are simple enought that wire wrapping a board is about a one
>day job.  The minium p21 board is two chips!  
>
>I had figured that like on the Novix that many people would publish the
>designs of their boards, the PALs or other ASIC chips they programmed to
>glue to P21 to extend its features, and the software they had written
>for P21.  The Novix Forthkit I got from Chuck Moore in 86 included a lab
>book very much like what I had in Electronics class in Physics in college
>with short projects using a page or two of documentation for hardware and
>software extensions to the system.  Dr. Ting's newsletters included more
>of these sorts of things with Novix and RTX.  There didn't seem to be
>much of that with P21 other than the stuff that I donated, at least not
>as much as I expected.  I expected other people to make web pages and
>document their hardware and software projects.
>
>I could have made the F21 in a mouse with a P21 in a mouse years ago.  It
>would need a little I/O hardware that is built into F21 and it wouldn't
>be as clean but it was about one day project.  The documenation and addition
>to the emulator took a week.  It would have been fun to do a project like
>that with P21 every day for the last six years but I have had a regular job
>much of the time and a second job running UltraTechnology.
>
>Jeff Fox
>
>
>
>
>