Re: How uncommon is my viewpoint?

[Greg Alexander <galexand@xxxxxxx>]

>Greg Alexander wrote:
>> Is this a common viewpoint?  Are there a lot of people who like MISC but
>> are not on the small list of people who Jeff doesn't insult?  
>> Or is it as
>> Jeff thinks it is that everyone who hates him hates MISC?
>
>I would say you are one in a thousand, maybe I will be suprised
>to learn that you are not.
>
>I have no doubt that you "hate" me as you have told me so so
>many times today.  I also know that you claim to _______ love
>MISC but add that you hate me.  You hate me because you
>don't think I did enough for you and because I have objected
>to your calling me a liar and cultist and you feel you have
>the right to insult people but hate anyone who might insult you
>back. 

I hate you because you put an outsider religion in something beautiful.

Most people say "Jeff's cult."  I propose a new name that anyone who's
argued with you will be familiar with: I call it "The Dozens."  As in "the
dozens of people who told you I'm right and you're wrong."  I'm sure
anyone who's argued with you would recognize that, I saw it so many times.

I'm pissed because I was one of the dozens.  I assumed that anyone was not
one of the dozens (it's very obvious who is or who isn't) didn't "get"
MISC.  I puzzled about the Plicholtas.  I saw how your manner was
evangelical and how you very strongly excluded those who didn't "get"
MISC.  I thought that was appropriate.  Boy was I surprised when I was
strongly excluded only for finding a problem in the P21.  I didn't
complain about it in my first post, 

One of the dozens emailed Jeff last night and he forwarded me the email
(with no sender address).  It implied that if I only listened to what Jeff
etc had to say then I would be in a better position:
	I've listened.  Ting told me that SRAM was so much faster than
DRAM, but it turns out that slow DRAM (80ns) has as fast a CAS->data valid
time as really fast SRAM (20ns).  That was really useful.  Ting's manual
told me a lot of things that were wrong and misleading.
	I've listened.  Soeren Tiedemann told me that if I ran the power
lower I would get lower performance, saving power and reducing the
frequency of external signals.  Very useful, good advice, until you
discover that the P21 doesn't really operate below 5V, and that Jeff will
bash you if you don't have the ability to built a stable power supply that
you can regulate above 5V.  Oh, I haven't run it, I haven't done the
science, but every time someone says "the P21 isn't stable" Jeff tells
them they have a broken power supply and are stupid for thinking it's a
P21 problem.  I HAVE LISTENED.
	I've listened!!  Jeff said the P21Forth was free, a gift to the
world.  The source isn't.  His webpage at one point said that it was, then
it wasn't.  The manual is nice, but it doesn't address issues.  I'm glad
it's out there, but it's not the sort of thing you can point to and say
"there, P21 documentation is complete."
	I've listened!!!!@#!@  Jeff said for years that MISC is great.
He's bashed anyone who insulted the P21, YET HE REFUSES TO SUPPORT THE
P21.  He finally "answered all of my questions."  He included
disinformation and lots of "I don't know."  The only answer that was any
use was "Look at DRAM timings" which is something I already knew, I just
didn't want to do that unless I knew I wouldn't be able to get right
timings for the chip (because, as I explained, I am not using DRAM, merely
something compatable with DRAM).
	I've listened!  For years, Jeff's been spamming Chuck's essays,
about simplicity, and lowering the barrier to entry.  I ask for meager
help, "crybaby."  Yeah, i've been listening.

	Here's a convincing argument that The Dozens really exist and that
Jeff is a cult leader:
	Up until May 14th (from some time in 1998, maybe 1997) I've been a
vocal supporter of Jeff's.  I've mostly lurked, but I've certainly had my
hand in a few of the flamewars Jeff starts, and I've been universally on
Jeff's side until May 14th.  On May 14th, I WAS STILL ON JEFF'S SIDE.
What I did was I posted a message saying that i couldn't find P21
documentation, that I would buy the programming manual if people thought
that was necessary, but from that point, I was an enemy of MISC, an enemy
of Jeff, and an enemy of The Dozens.
	Then suddenly Jeff hated me for two or three weeks.  He says that
I complained for "months" (the first version was actually "a year," but
that was private email).  If you've noticed every time someone comes out
of a private email with Jeff cussing and pissed off, he says that he's
talked to them "for months."  Remember the c.l.f guy who couldn't get the
P21 to work because of "a flaky power supply"?  Oh yeah, Jeff talked to
him patiently and politely and accurately "for months."  Yeah, I believe
it.
	So then at some point in June I decided to kiss Jeff's ass.  I
wasted his time and mine, I just straight up preached to the choir.  I
told him how much a MISC fan I was by bashing complex people, because
that's what he really loves.  Oh wow did I get a warm reception there.  I
managed to get Ting's email address from him and everything.  That was
the good times.  But then I emailed Ting and I found that Ting doesn't
really care about giving correct answers, he just says whatever is in his
mouth.  That's when I got pissed.
	The funny thing is that Jeff didn't recognize the agony of a
MISCer betrayed by the angels of MISC, he instead thought I was an
outsider and exiled me from The Dozens.  I can't criticize Offete's shitty
business practices or UT's shitty business practices without "offending
Jeff."  And once you've offended Jeff, he just insults you and insults
you.
	I bet if three weeks from now I told Jeff again how horrible
complexity is, he would be my friend.  I really don't think he remembers
who we are, we not in The Dozens.  I don't think he even remembers who The
Dozens are, because he certainly seems to think I've hated him for years.
Jeff kept on telling me he'd sent me documentation he hadn't, answered
questions he hadn't, etc., etc., etc.
	I'm fairly certain The Dozens aren't very loyal to Jeff.  He's too
anticharismatic and ready to attack one of the fold.  I suspect they're
only his worshippers in his mind, and in arguments.  But it doesn't much
matter whether the cult is a dozen people and Jeff, or just Jeff and a
dozen imaginary friends, the atmosphere of Cult and how strongly one is IN
or OUT, is very unavoidable when dealing with Jeff.

>> Because if we realize that we love MISC and that MISC is going nowhere
>> with Jeff at the helm, we might be able to take it places ourselves.
>
>Didn't know I was at the helm of MISC.  I have never seen it that
>way.  I am pretty focused on my company and my chip.  I hear
>so much about everyone else's designs that maybe one of them
>would like to take the wheel.   I am not steering the
>MISC mail list so if someone thinks steering is needed then
>someone better take the wheel of MISC.  I am not interested.
>I nominated I would not run.  If elected I would not serve. 
>I have other things to deal with.  I will also pass on the
>other job that Greg feels I should be doing, providing support 
>him on P21 while listening to his insults.

What you are doing is being a vocal evangelist, and attempting to lead a
small cult.  You are making a LOT of noise in the forth press.  Right now
somebody thinks MISC they think "Oh the P21 sucks." and they think "Ting
hasn't got his act together." and they think "Jeff hasn't got his act
together."  They aren't too bothered by the fact that Ting doesn't have
his act together, he doesn't go in their faces and keep on telling them
how great P21 is.  But you, Jeff, keep on telling everyone how great P21
is (but if we ask questions "oh, that's ancient history."  "Why would I
support a competitor's product?")
	Oh, and did I mention that I"ve listened?  I've listened when Jeff
was EXTREMELY offended when somebody said in c.l.f "And once the F21 is
finally released, it will also be ancient history, and it will not be
documented any more than the P21 is."  With the same hands on the same
keyboard, he later types the words "ancient history" with regards to P21
and explaining why he doesn't care if anyone can use it or not.  Of
course, the fact that the P21 sucks is prime in conversations about the
P21, but if he's trying to promote the F21, OH BOY, he's really supportive
of ALL THINGS CHUCK at that point, and you'd be thinking from the way he
talks taht the P21 is the greatest thing, if only he had the time to play
with it and wasn't so busy with F21 devel!
	Jeff presumably knows about the P21.  He supports it loudly and
clearly.  But it's only a negative kind of support.  "If you don't love
the P21, you aren't smart enough for MISC, crybaby."  If you have actual
questions, he insults you, dodges them, and answers incorrectly.


	I happen to be a bit of a technological rebel.  I prefer
simplicity.  When I work on somebody else's code, adding a feature is
usually a matter of removing the lines that make the feature not happen.
When I do hardware work (which is not too often), my goal is simplicity.
I'm also a huge fan of FORTH because that is simple software.  I've been a
big fan of Linux for years because even though it's very complicated, it's
a lot simpler than the other systems I had available at the time.  I have
no trouble ignoring the standard or making something completely out there,
I enjoy one of a kind hardware.  I am not stupid enough to use prototype
chips that have been released for 7 years and touted by Jeff as the
greatest gift to mankind.  I am not too stupid to use the P21 if it were
documented properly.  I do not want my hand held or my food pre-chewed.  I
want the truth.  I want it accurate.  I want it complete.  When I ask for
an P21 timing diagram I do not want to be told to go to a DRAM timing
diagram.  This is why people think that Jeff is a joke.  He is.  When I
ask for a P21 memory map I do not want some bullshit rattled off from your
broken memory.  When I ask for second-order information about the timing
diagram ("will this work?") I do not need Ting showing me that he knows
nothing about DRAM timings earlier.

	But it doesn't help me any that any time I say "yeah, I like MISC"
everybody first thinks of "Jeff's Dozens."  I was talking on the C channel
on EFnet IRC the other day and I mentioned this flamewar and A LISP
PROGRAMMER who DOES NOT FOLLOW FORTH said "the forth cult?"  I didn't tell
him it was a culty thing, I was just talking about minimal processors and
he immediately thought of "the forth cult."


	Something I haven't considered much is the accusations that Jeff's
Dozens are only there because Chuck's a genius and we're just kind of
worshipping all the fallout from Chuck that we can get through Jeff.  That
could be.  It's worth noting that Jeff doesn't really believe in Chuck's
vision, he's only giving it lip service.  Chuck's vision is simplicity,
and in order for simplicity to be worth anything it needs clarity.  In the
MuP21 programming manual itself there is a quote of Chuck "If we make
things easy to get into, machine language programming can be taught in the
grade school."  Jeff would say "If you haven't got an EE degree, vast
familiarity with everything under the sun, and E.S.P. to figure out the
other details, you're a crybaby and you are an obnoxious little baby bird
in the nest cheeping for pre-chewed food."

	So there, Jeff is a hypocrite, a liar, an asshole, a failed cult
leader, and the man who's nearly single-handedly created a stereotype that
I'm going to have to deal with for the rest of my professional career.
	Oh, I'm sure he's not the only Forth head to have helped with this
stereotype, but, let's be serious, nobody puts the cult in "forth cult"
like Jeff's Dozens.


	I apologize greatly for preaching to the choir on some of these
issues and generally making a big mess of the mailing list.  I honest
to god hope that someone who is a dozen like me will recognize this
and say "Oh, maybe I shouldn't support Jeff, but should stick with the
technology instead."  I'm still a huge fan of the MISC idea, I'll still
be reading this list if I'm not removed, I'll probably still post every
now and then.  Luck allowing, I'd like to retrace some of Chuck's
footprints and start doing some VLSI myself, but that's years in the
future at any rate.


	If ANYONE knows about the P21 and has the time to actually answer
my questions, I would greatly appreciate it.  But I'm pretty sure by now
that Ting doesn't understand timing diagrams and that Chuck doesn't make
timing diagrams and that Jeff doesn't have access to them, so I'm stuck
with this conservative 20ns estimate that makes my project in a bit of a
bind.  (on an off-topic note: if anyone knows of low-power 20ns SRAMs, I
would love to have a reference. :)


	Oh, and if you are close to Jeff but you don't feel that The
Dozens really exist, I have two things for you: If you don't tell me, you
lose the right to later tell me "you wouldn't've listened."  Second, after
this has cooled off, criticize Jeff.  I don't mean call him an idiot, I
mean find something that's really horrible about something that he
supports, such as the P21's total lack of documentation or extreme
sensitivity to power supply, or maybe criticize his evangelical nature (I
hope you wouldn't deny that), tell him that maybe if he toned it down a
little bit people wouldn't think he's a cult leader.  Do something like
that, and you'll soon find yourself no longer in The Dozens.  You'll be
surprised, shocked, blown away, frustrated, insulted, upset, and you will
find yourself cursing at Jeff.
	I figure that if anyone tries this then they'll "confront" Jeff
with this flaw and pad it with flowery friendly words and include a long
diatribe about how horrible complex programmers are, include some
Chuck-ass-kissing, say how excited you are about the F21, and then include
a lot of weasel words in the actual confrontation itself.  You know, the
things you have to do when approaching a cult leader about a problem in
the cult.  Oh well.