Re: Greg's questions

["Richard S. Westmoreland" <sagalore@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> Example of you complaining:
>     As I have said.  There is a crowd in c.l.f who are proud of not
>     knowing anything about it.  They proudly announce that they will
>     ignore any examples or explanations posted because they don't
>     want to know about it.
> (from private email, but I've seen you express this sentiment often enough
> that I hope it's okay to post it to the list).  Now it's definitely
> possible that this was not really complaining and that you are perfectly
> happy with these people not respecting your ideas, perhaps based off of an
> incorrect assumption that they are universally stupid.  I like such
> assumptions, they are convenient, but damn are they limiting!

That doesn't sound like complaining.

>
> Example of Chuck complaining (page 103 first?? second?? third?? edition of
> MuP21 programming manual)
>     The Establishment
>
>     I've got to pass on to you my latest encounter with the
>     establishment.  It is disturbing and it is illuminating.  I told
>     you before that I was writing a paper for HOPL 2, the Second
>     Conference on the History of Programming Languages.  I got a
>     letter a month ago saying that they regretted that they could not
>     accept my paper.  I wrote in my own style what had occured in
>     those early days.  It was not in the academic style they expected.
>     <...>
> Chuck clearly is not happy with his rejection by 'the
> establishment', so I don't know how this could be portrayed as
> anything but complaining.  Note that I avoided the connotationally
> loaded word "whining."

He's clearly upset, yes.  But I don't see any complaints.  With what you
have cut and pasted, it looks like he's pointing out that his paper was
rejected because it different conform to the way everyone else expected it
to be.

> On May 14th I started complaining, and I was well done complaining
> by June 12th, which is when I ordered my MuP21+manual.  I only two
> days ago resumed complaining, at least on the list, and only a
> week before that began complaining to you.  You did not tell me to
> look at other things, though you suggested that some issues of
> More on Forth engines would be useful.  It is prohibitively
> expensive to buy all of More on Forth Engines.  Are you mad at me
> because I'm too poor to buy what you want me to, or because you
> think I wouldn't read them even if I could afford them?

Are you mad at Jeff because he's too poor to spoon feed you?  Complainers
complain to the person responsible for their troubles.  Whiners whine to
everyone for attention.  Why are you doing this on the MISC list?

>
> >(For months Greg complained that there was NO documentation
>
> For less than a month.

lol

> No, I said that because free copies of Offete documentation are
> not available, UT looks bad.  If ANYONE published free copies of
> P21 documentation then UT and Offete would BOTH gain tremendously
> in public opinion.  I didn't say that UT was RESPONSIBLE, I said
> that if UT didn't do it and nobody else did it, UT would certainly
> lose out in the long run.  Hobbyists are just hobbyists, but some
> of them will someday (perhaps tomorrow or yesterday) go on to make
> big purchasing decisions.

Good point.  If you do resolve the P21 documentation problem, please send
some corrected and updated documents to me and I will post them on my site.

> Okay, let's play fair.  After so many years you have only NOW
> bothered to produce the F21d.  What took you so damn long?  OH
> WAIT MAYBE YOU'RE NOT MADE OF MONEY EITHER.  It's a matter of
> scale -- right now I have just barely enough money to buy P21
> stuff one tiny item at a time.  Right now you have just barely
> enough money to prototype F21, one prototype run at a time, with
> years between them.  Someday I will probably have just barely
> enough money to prototype chips too, but right now I have barely
> enough money to buy them.  You're complaining that nobody reads
> your stuff, and you're also complaining that you are broke because
> of supporting F21 development, and you make fun of us for
> complaining that we do not have the money to buy Ting's horrible
> documentation?

???  Where did he say that?

> >I never assume people are stupid.  I give everyone the same change
>
> Yes you do.
>
> >to expose their own mental abilities.  I often give people who
>
> No you don't.

lol

> I again point out that in this conversation you have spent
> literally thousands of lines telling me how bad a P21 user I am,
> and this message has a very small technical issue to offense
> ratio.  I included very little offense at the beginning of my
> questions compared to questions, at least compared to you.

Also nice to point out, that in this conversation you have spent just as
many lines telling Jeff how bad of a P21 helpdesk rep, documentor, and
overall person he is.  :0/

> Oh, that sure does explain why there's a searchable mailing list
> archive.  OH WAIT THERE ISN'T.

Actually there is... http://pisa.rockefeller.edu:8080/MISC/

>
> >It is a fun party.  You are invited.  If it is more fun for
>
> No I'm not, because I don't have enough money to join the "in
> group" that has a bookshelf full of badly written incorrect and
> contradicting Ting documents.

I think what Jeff is trying to say is that MISC, P21, F21, etc. is not some
huge corporate fork up your butt venture - it was developed by a handful of
people that enjoy developing such stuff.  So if you dive into it expecting
something from a multibillionaire company, then you might be disappointed.
But since you already knew that, then maybe it's just the fork that is the
problem.  ;0)

>
> >No one says that you should prefer P21 to a TI chip.  The
> >people here who do don't need to argue with you about it.  If
> >you want to find your fun elsewhere then feel free.  We
> >won't feel offended if you have more fun doing other
> >things.
>
> No, you don't understand at all.  I am upset because I want to
> find my fun in P21 chips, but you and Ting have erected
> unnecessary barriers to its use.  Ting did so because he doesn't
> care about the American market.  You have done so because you are
> very hostile.

I would agree that there are many barrieris - much more than just what you
are stating here... but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.  Look at
www.itvc.com and then look at www.ultratechnology.com  Jeff has content
pouring out of the seems - historical, technical, recorderd, demonstrative
(regardless of how outdated or cluttered it is).  Whereas iTV has absolutely
nothing on their site.  They want to keep the progress to themselves.  They
have funding.  Jeff does not have funding, and when he tests a chip or has
news, it's on the front of his site.

And it seems that iTV might be better off, because if you can't find out
anything about their status, then you don't have to worry about answering
questions.

> >We did have one user who kept asking about the circuit that
> >automatically changed the timing on the memory circuits on the
> >fly.  He kept saying that this circuit was bad because if he
> >"blew" on his chip it would "jump."  He insisted that the
> >technology was doomed because this circuit was bad.
>
> See this is you complaining.  You could answer my question, but
> instead you do your absolute best to try to associate me with
> idiots.  Nevermind that when I watched this discussion he wasn't
> as idiotic as your followers seem to think.  (I think I can say
> that now, since I was a follower)

You must be more sensitive to text than I am because I don't think he's
calling you an idiot.  You seem to have cut out the important part where you
asked:

  "> There's some mention in the MuP20 part about DRAM and SRAM clocks being
> configurable -- is this the case?

Doesn't look like he understood the context of your question.  So he asks
for more info about that question:

  "Was it talking about hardware design?  Programming?  What page?  What
does it say?  F21 got registers that the user could set to change
memory timing.  This was not the case on P21.

  "We did have one user who kept asking about the circuit that
automatically changed the timing on the memory circuits on the
fly.  He kept saying that this circuit was bad because if he
"blew" on his chip it would "jump."  He insisted that the
technology was doomed because this circuit was bad.

  "People kept telling him that this circuit didn't exist and asking
him what he was talking about.  No one could ever figure it out.

  "Perhaps you found the same documenation that confused him.  What
where is this mentioned in the documentation that you have and
what does it say?  I am currious."

He is not calling you an idiot.  He is not calling that other guy an idiot.
He was pointing out that someone else had mentioned a similar dilemma, for
which he couldn't figure out what part of the chip he was talking about.  So
instead of nailing Jeff in the head about being a complainer and not
answering questions, why don't you stop complaining and answer his
questions.


> >Of the dozens of questions you have asked I have given thoughful
> >and detailed answers to all of them that I could understand.  I
>
> hah.

lol

>
> >also had to correct a lot of wrong assumptions that you mixed
> >in with your questions.  I think this should show to anyone that
>
> hah.  hah.

lol

>
> >people have been tring to answer your questions even if they
> >have been asked and answered many times before.  Most people
>
> hahahahahah

lol

>
> >do ask their questions more politely, without the profanity
> >and insults.
>
> fuck off.
>

Oh my.  At work, I have to deal with customer service calls for an ISP /
computer showroom.  It can be frustrating at times when the customer has no
idea what they are doing, but are very insistant that they are right and we
are wrong.  Sometimes customers leave some very insulting voicemail, ending
with "and you better call me back".  Yea right - delete.  lol  :0)  But I
also understand that the customers have grown up in a world with the motto
"the customer is always" right - meaning they will always get their way.
They have through the roof expectations about the way a company is suppose
to work, or how the service is supposed to be.  But at the same time I know
how some of the customer's feel... by the time I'm done on the phone with
them I'm ready to give them a spare kidney.  It's funny to see that happy
customers are very very happy with our service, but miserable customers are
very very miserable.  Someone that talks to me with obscenity, and blames me
for everything wrong with their computer will not get 100% out of me.
Someone that is patient, is willing to listen, and doesn't have it in their
mind that they know more than everyone else will get 200% from me.  That's
just life.

And sometimes some unlucky person is going to get a lemon.  Or maybe by
coincidence they don't get called back three times in a row.  But that's
life.

> Jeff, you're a liar and a flake.

Yep.  There goes any chance of a refund.  lol  I bet you are going to copy
your post and replace all "Jeff's" with "Ting's" since you are aware that
Jeff isn't *responsible* for any of your documentation problems.  Or maybe
you should replace it with Chuck since he designed the chip.  He coded OKAD,
he sat down and thought it out.  Maybe he's responsible for lack of
documentation.  If you bought an F21, then this discussion would be
relevant.

> For years I saw people say that.  I saw people say that you had no
> idea what you were doing.  I saw people say that UT will fail
> because you have no clue what you're doing trying to run a chip
> business

Is he running a business?

> I wasted $50 on the MuP21.  I strongly advise nobody ever make the
> same mistke.

How much was the manual?

>
> I fucking love MISC.  I think it's one of the greatest things
> going on right now.  I'm just really sad to see MISC represented
> in America by a fucking idiot like Jeff and someone who doesn't
> even care like Ting.  It's just a real fucking shame to see
> Chuck's great ideas wasted on the likes of them.

Then why don't you build a site and represent MISC too.  You care.  You are
not an idiot.  Get some documentation together, send it to me and I'll post
it on my site, maybe work together on a few things.