Re: [colorforth] Re: objects and forth

[vaded@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 00:28:24 -0600, "John R. Strohm" <strohm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
said:
> The question was whether learning C, Smalltalk, or LISP before attempting
> to 
> learn FORTH would help or hurt.
> 
> Smalltalk is, as near as I can tell without spending a LOT of time
> learning it 
> in detail, inextricably tangled up in twisted weave of classes.  None of
> C, 
> LISP, or FORTH have that particular feature.  All can be extended with
> classes. 
> C has two main ways, Objective C and C++.  LISP does it with CLOS. 
> FORTH, you 
> roll your own, but look at CREATE-DOES> for a starting point.
> 
> It is not clear to me that requiring the student to master many
> intricacies of 
> object-oriented design and programming is all that likely to help him
> learn the 
> mindset of a language that explicitly does not include object
> orientation.
> 
> On The Gripping Hand, as Niven & Pournelle fans say, the RIGHT way to
> learn 
> FORTH is to grab a copy of Leo Brodie's wonderful book "Starting FORTH",
> and 
> work through it.  Follow that up with "Thinking FORTH", by the same
> author.

I like the two mentioned books by Brodie, but _so much has changed_ 
since they were written that I'm not sure if they should still be the 
recommended introduction to Forth.   

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aleksej Saushev" <asau@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <colorforth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 11:23 AM
> Subject: [colorforth] Re: objects and forth
> 
> 
> > "John R. Strohm" <strohm@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> >
> >> Learning C first will probably do some damage.
> >>
> >> Learning Smalltalk first will probably do some serious damage.
> >
> > Which way? I don't believe that.
> >
> > I'm more inclined to believe that learning Smalltalk first will cure you
> > from Forth DIY disease. At least with Smalltalk you get complete system,
> > usable "mind amplifier."
> >
> >> Learning LISP first, if you learn it RIGHT (i.e., from SICP),
> >> will probably help a lot more than it hurts.
> >>
> >> Recall that there are two categories of computer languages:
> >> LISP, and everything else.
> >
> > And how much does Smalltalk differ from Lisp in conceptual simplicity of
> > base language?
> >
> > I'm pretty sure, that if you learn Smalltalk right, it will help more
> > than learning Forth rigth. Just compare Squeak to equally licensed Forth,
> > pForth or FICL. Feel the difference. Compare it to Gforth and feel it again.
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > HE CE3OH...
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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